Chatting With A Real Food Writer.
On imposter syndrome, outdated food writing phrases, and being in the arena.
I don’t know how, sometime during 2021 I just started messaging with Luisa, the only person I know with a blue tick on social media, and most importantly the voice of the Australian Filipino food community. She and Diem have been working on a home cooking project and I suspect that’s how they found me. The two ladies are the most supportive people I know - providing feedback, and comments the moment I post my posts, even though we’ve never met in person.
Diem works in finance by day and writes about food at night. Like me, she only started during the pandemic, and unlike me, she’s written for Gourmet Traveller, SBS Food, ABC Everyday, Broadsheet.When I started migrating to Substack with a plan to interview some writers, Diem’s the first person I had in mind. I won’t call it an interview, but rather a chat. We had fun emailing back and forth during March, but it’s going to be a long scroll in one go.
I asked my daughter (on her sick day) to provide illustration for today’s article. Please consider purchasing or gifting a subscription so we can pay the struggling artists the commission they deserve*.
Let’s cue intro music, and please welcome, Diem Tran.
So the first question: how did you find me (or my book) again?
Second question, super boring: how did you end up becoming a food writer?
1. My friend, Lidia, told me about you and your Instagram account – we have similar tastes in food and content. She mentioned how hilarious you are. I ordered your book (ebook first) and laughed out loud so many times, I went back pretty much straight away and ordered the hard copy too.
2. In a roundabout way. I submitted an essay to Diversity in Food Media's initiative, New Voices on Food, back in August 2020 and Lee Tran published it, and I genuinely thought that was my one-hit-wonder in the food media world. I'm not very good at finding out when a restaurant is opening, I'm not in the 'in crowd' or an influencer, I don't get invited to restaurant openings, I don't give hot takes on Instagram – I just really like food and the people who make it and make 'stuff' around it. I don't think my path to food writing is typical (I don't have a writing background, and I still have a full-time job) – I've been pretty damn lucky that editors like Yvonne C Lam (Gourmet Traveller), Farah Celjo (SBS Food), Sonya Gee (ABC) and Dani Frangos (Broadsheet Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth) have reached out and asked if I wanted to write. I've learned to write for editors and publications, and I occasionally like to write for myself at Sunday Side Project, my very abandoned newsletter.
I have met Lidia, we had a good chat and I made her run late for work. Hi Lidia!
From our last conversation, I think we both share the impostor syndrome, the difference being you are legitimately a multi-publication food writer, not some self-published hack.
And you said you got in because you're female and Asian, and fit what the publishers are looking for. It's bullshit because obviously, 'My mum and her iPad*' was beautifully written and the publisher saw something in that. (Here's a confession, I submitted to New Voices on Food too but didn't get squat.) Many writers long for the big break, and getting it on your first try does not invalidate your writing, and also, 'SO WHAT?' Would you prefer another non-Asian, non-female to be writing about Vietnamese food? If it's someone, it might as well be you, right?
So I guess, stripping everything apart, what do you enjoy about writing? Or what made you write in the very beginning? I mean, obviously, you didn't just take an interest in food during COVID, these food vocabulary don't just accumulate overnight. I've seen your cookbook collection…
Harvard! You didn't tell me that you submitted to New Voices. Have you published it anywhere else? Can I read it?
What do I enjoy about writing? It's nice to free up my brain - this is how I talk (to others and inside my head), though, you can reflect and edit more with writing. I've written about restaurants from my childhood and evoked some deep memories my brother had forgotten; I've written about mi-goreng and cried when I found out it was the dish my heroin-addicted cousin brought home to his parents and siblings after running away from home for months; I write to remember my mum – when she is gentle, funny and creative – to remember she is a person outside of being my mum.
I think I've always loved food – the act of eating and sharing a meal – I'm not very fancy, the food I grew up with and make isn't very fancy. What I have under my belt is renewed confidence in cooking (I wasn't always confident, and didn't cook for almost two years between 2017-2019) and I have a very strong urge to feed and care for people. I also can't drink alcohol (I'm horribly allergic) so I'll smash people with food instead.
I buy cookbooks mainly to read – you know how lots of people complain about long headnotes? I live for them. I will absolutely cook a recipe just because I love the story behind it.
*published in New Voices on Food only, sadly. You can try your luck by asking Diem really nicely.
It's embarrassing because I just copy and pasted the teriyaki recipe in 'Soy Sauce, Sugar, Mirin'. In hindsight, I should've submitted the one about Japanese Cheesecake. Both wouldn't stand a chance against 'My mum and her iPad' though.
I have a feeling that story was so personal and real, that it's hard to replicate in an editorial context? Like, here's a ramen restaurant, apply the same magic and try to make people relate and cry, one, two go!
Next question: what food writing word/phrase makes your eyes roll at the moment. I'll go first: 'you do you', 'umami bomb', hole in a wall', ' alumni', ‘vibe’ ...
God, you make me laugh. Maybe I write because deep down I'm a romantic. The things I like to write about are nostalgic and whimsical(?) – it can straddle between 'who cares' and 'that reminds me of'. Maybe it's to help me remember all the things that live inside my head.
Ooo.. good question. Not eye-rolling, but cringe/uncomfortable: ‘authentic’. What a can of worms!
Words I've avoided using: ‘elevated’ (elevated for whom, and why?), ‘umami’, ‘plant-based’ (one time I saw a company called 'polyester' vegan – go away!)
I try not to write about anything related to fad diets, 'trends' (I'm not cool or hip)
I see your ‘elevated’, and raise to … ‘NEXT LEVEL’.
I’ve used it, and felt like taking a shower after. Sometimes colloquial is important too, no?
Back to our impostor syndromes - do you think you'll get over it if you get published more, or actually have done a 'food writing' degree? I remember you attended an online food writing workshop, how was it? Like, did it make you feel less like an imposter?
Sometimes, when words escape you - 'next level' is appreciated. Sometimes I use 'fancy' – sometimes someone has just made something 'fancy', haha! I try not to use 'amazing'. How do you break down 'amazing'?
My personal solution is to learn to love writing for me vs. for an audience. Will I love writing if it's not published or paid for? Probably! Will I prioritise this kind of writing? I'm struggling! I write lots of little notes of essays I could write, for no one in particular. And then they languish in my notebook forever. My partner is also very supportive, maybe filling me up with too much hot air. But I appreciate it.
Molly's workshop was great. It made me feel OK about tapping into memory (food + feelings), and that food writing is more than how something tastes or how it is presented. It didn't make me want to write more, but it made me want to read more. There are so many different genres and styles within food writing. I read what people consider 'good food writing' (sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't – some of it makes me feel happy to be alive, others make me go, meh) and do my own exploring too – I try and read broadly too, outside of food writing, to understand what I like and what I don't. Why do some people love a book and why can't I understand anything? Is it because I don't 'get' the classics? Will that make me a less sophisticated writer? Maybe.
I guess a way to 'get over myself' is to appreciate that I have my own voice, and some people will like it and others won't. Am I brave enough to not be liked? I don't have opinions, just memories. The response I get for a 'silly article' about noodles may resonate with someone and compel them to share their own story with me – that's worth a lot to me. See? I'm a romantic!
I am all for life experience vs. a piece of expensive ass paper. I never wanted to go to uni, I don't believe my degrees ever came in handy (apart from getting a look in as a commerce graduate), and I hope I never have to study again. I'd explore writing workshops to understand different styles (won't say no to trying something once) – but it's not on the cards for me right now.
I'm curious to know where you stand with legitimising yourself as a writer – do you think you need to do a course? Do you want to be published more, and more widely? Will you ever stop shitting on your self-published project? Do you believe people when they say your writing is very good, and that very good writing can also be a lot of fun?
The thing about going 'viral' - sure I get 20k likes, but some comments are really brutal. My name seems to trigger many American Asians, some would just periodically DM me 'fuck you buddy' for no reason. I get the 'some people will like it and others won't' part of fame, but man, the internet was really angry last year. A proper writer does not have to deal with this kinda shit.
I mean, I went full 'Asian' and made a book and some money out of it. But out there, there're people who generate all this content, just for fun and likes. And it's mad.
Anyway, Hana, my daughter started reading last year, and I tell her 'you're reading so well, well done!' I know for a fact that it's rare for a 5-year-old to be able to read at her level. But, the way she looks at me though, is like silently saying 'come on, don't be so condescending, I'm not as good as you adults, or my older friends'.
Both are true, right? She can be amazing and I can be condescending at the same time lol
Having worked with copywriters, friends who signed book deals with international publishers, parents with kids but still pursuing a postgraduate, writing a proper thesis with footnotes, I think my book is an 'aww that’s cute' kind of success.
I guess what I'm saying is, that there's fine-dining cooking, and there's home cooking, and I'm definitely the latter. I'm just accepting that not everything has to be at a 3-star Michelin level. I'm happy to be the uncle that jokes and says what people are afraid to say from time to time. (Maybe that's why I'm a little bit triggered by that MBA food writer you shared with me today. It's actually the anti-me. Does one have to be an MBA graduate, a professional chef, a Ted Talk presenter, to be taken seriously? Does it make her cooking more legitimate than mine? Am I allowed to write if I don't know about all these other food writers?)
I'll call myself a writer when I can provide a comfortable life for my family (at the very least, myself) with writing.
So at the moment, I'm a photographer, then a designer, then maybe I'll tell people about that cookbook I self-published in 2021.
I feel like that's my bulletproof vest, so I can tell people 'go ahead, make fun of my writing, because I'm actually not a writer, HA!'
How about you? What will make you take a leap and be a full-time writer?
The internet is a very brutal place, I agree – and I've heard people who write weekly columns regularly cop it from readers (people love to complain and criticise – all the keyboard warriors of the world, hah).
Something that gets me through is this quote by Teddy Roosevelt:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
I hope you find comfort in the doing vs. anticipating the wrath of people who aren't 'in the arena' giving writing and living life a go. I try not to pay attention to people who don't do the doing, if that makes sense.
I think you'll also find, a lot of the best food writers over time aren't Michelin-starred chefs, don't have qualifications, are home cooks, some don't cook at all. Julia Child took 10 years to write her first book, fell into TV by accident. Granted she's a white woman, she makes me feel OK that I only started writing in my 30s. Anyone who is snobbish enough to turn up their nose at good writing (be it that they're an academic or striving for something on an intellectual spectrum), probably just... doesn't get it. Maybe they're insecure, just like us.
I think the armour of being an amateur is a good one too – you can explore, experiment, and make mistakes whilst still having fun.
I'm not really sure if I'll ever take the leap to become a full-time writer (I mean, look at our freelance rates - I'd have to write 4, 5 maybe 6 times what I do now to make the same as I do in my office job + full-time writing roles don't exist? I don't think so anyway). I know the world doesn't work that way anymore, and I'm not in a position to put that kind of pressure on my family to support me with writing. Maybe one day I'll write a book (published or otherwise), and maybe I'll feel OK about being called a writer. (cry-laughing emoji)
Perhaps food writers were never paid much to start with, it's the movies and our own romanticism that made us think so.
I've been busy today trying to set up zoom meetings with the Aeropress champions around the world - was chatting to the HK champion and he just said baristas don’t make any money. He's a full-time engineer, and part-time coffee lover. I remember at the beginning of 2000 every 20+ yr old wanted to be a barista, and they never considered the reality of it.
You say you wouldn't, but you’re doing some home cook thing with Luisa right? My feeling was, that there was an urge/hope, to make something interesting too?
Let me rephrase - if money wasn't the issue, what would you like to write? Say in an ideal world, GT told you ' go pick your story, anywhere, anything' .... what would you do?
It's very much romanticism!
How did Carrie from Sex And The City afford to live in her brownstone apartment in NYC writing a column?
I worked in hospo as a uni student and LOVED making coffee, so I definitely know the romanticism of wanting to be a career barista.
Yeah, Luisa and I both wanted to start off simple with Home Cook (sell ebook) and hopefully build up enough of a community (she hates that word), that would allow us to build a platform that could house the type of writing you see on Vittles or Lucky Peach – generally whatever we see in the US/UK at the moment. Not just restaurant/chef-centric stuff like we seem to focus on here.
I think I'd like to write more about the act of home cooking (I'm not a recipe developer though)... and cooking from cookbooks? I really don't know – I'm not very political, but maybe observations/musings? That would be fun. I'm enjoying memoirs at the moment so maybe focus on that.
What about you? What's your food writing genre of choice?
Funny I just spoke to 4 baristas today for the upcoming Aeropress Championship. They all seem happy with their life choices :)
I've been thinking about what I want to write - maybe I don't really like to write, I just like to talk to people lol
I think I like to travel and meet people, but as an introvert - like an Asian Jonathan Gold + Bourdain, but their lives seem pretty sad. Gold was eating out almost every day for the people of LA, that can’t be healthy. The fact that both of them are no longer here is kinda telling about their lifestyle.
And I like to gossip LOL like the last time they made you write about that ramen place which turned you off.
Tell tell, what happened?
I think your concept would suit you to a tee!
A couple of things made me wary of the ramen article.
1. I reached out weeks ahead of their opening to see if they were interested in having a chat (multiple times, maybe 3)
2. A week or 2 out, I was directed to their PR firm (never had that before)
3. I received the same press release as everyone else on the day of the announcement (about a week out from the open date) - this was fine, I wasn't expecting special treatment
4. After opening, they emailed and text me multiple times over a few days asking if I was going to cover them
5. Emailed and texted me multiple times after I had a 5-minute phone call with the owner to ask when they could expect an article
The whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth. Like I was a sell-out. My editor was awesome and supported me and was understanding about the delays. She played ‘bad cop’ for me and got the PR firm to back off.
The redemption: the part-owner/chef was more open after our second phone call (I was cheeky and texted for clarification, he called me back and had a chat with me - maybe another 5 minutes - seemed more relaxed this time around, I was able to add a bit more personality beyond the press release regurgitation).
I hope I don't have a similar experience again (it was mild but enough to make my skin crawl) but I understand that this is probably what a lot of writers and editors encounter. It made me realise I should be pickier about who and what I pitch, and what I say yes to. I have full-time work – writing should be for fun, for as long as it can be fun for me anyway.
With my experience in advertising, I know how little they care about the real business. Imagine an intern working on 10 clients, and all they want to do is copy and paste into a template to save time and money.
It's weird though, why would they ask you for an article when they didn't pay for it? (Maybe they did pay Broadsheet, I never know.)
But yea, usually clients engage PR agencies because they don't have a personality and hope the agency would push stories for them. You made a BIG mistake ... of caring about the PR firm lol
I don't think selling out has anything to do with that. Maybe you have to look for the person who can make the 'call'.
Or in my case, already have a story in mind, and trying to bend their words to fit into my narrative (muahaha!)
You mentioned you cook more Mediterranean / western food than Asian. What's your favourite at the moment. I'm so hooked on a vegan tofu dan dan men, I have an angry story coming up.
It still felt very grubby. Lots of local news outlets were able to get their stories out quicker (established relationships, didn't have to elaborate on the press release etc), so it made me panicky and also like an inferior writer.
Oooo bending words to fit a narrative – perhaps you'd be more suited to editing?! Angry story linked to vegan tofu dan dan men lol I'm here for it!
When I cook for myself I make one-person pasta (mainly garlic with broccoli rabe if I can find it + chilli, or something with chorizo/sausage, white wine-based) – there is something very satisfying about making an excellent meal from pantry goods. When we eat family style, I'm the salad lady. I have bad memories of shit salads growing up (you know the one served at Asian BBQs? Iceberg lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber, and some dressing from a bottle - not for me, no thank you), so I try to make fun salads. I was mainly influenced by your arch-nemesis, the Chinese lady with the white name (Hetty McKinnon) - she makes excellent salads.
I'm looking forward to cooler weather cos I also like making lots of Italian-style 'peasant' soups. I leave the pho, hu tieu, bun bo hue - all the motherland stuff to my mum (who I visit once a week for dinner). Too spoilt to be dipping my toes into Viet cuisine though I know I should learn.
Good job simultaneously insulting me and editors around the world.
Iceberg lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber - sounds like salads across Japan!
I have a feeling your own home cuisine is something you'll dip into when you're away from home. That's just the way it is.
Since I'm a noob and I assume the newsletter readers are noobs - care to let us know who we should follow in terms of food writing? Who excites you?
Ha! Not an insult! You know how much I respect the editors I work with - nothing wrong with going into a story/pitch with a set narrative. Something I'm learning to be more flexible with when I go in with preconceived notions and they're debunked right off the bat. Japanese salad dressing is addictive and well-balanced though, not 'italian' or 'french' dressing from a bottle.
My favourite food writers: Ruby Tandoh, Ella Risbridger, Kate Young, Eric Kim, Michelle Zauner, Rebecca May Johnson, Rachel Roddy, Nigella Lawson, Nigel Slater, Alicia Kennedy, Mayukh Sen, Julia Child. I haven't read MFK Fisher (yet) – I know she's right up there with the best of the best. Whose writing do you enjoy? Can be food or otherwise.
Same old - like literally, same AND mostly old (and dead) - Jay Rayner, Jonathan Gold, Bourdain ... how about some ad men for you - google Dave Trott and Ad Aged. Murakami, both Haruki and Ryu. Mangas lol Have you heard of Oishinbo? It’s the longest manga about food, ever. They released an English compilation years ago…
Aaaand I think the interview's finished. We can go back to being informal.
Too easy, Harvard! That was fun.
* I really admire my daughter’s drawing. Her strokes have a raw energy that I as a grown-up can’t emulate. We could be drawing the same thing and I’m trying to draw ‘correctly’ while she’s just drawing the only way she knows how to. It was a really good exercise today - I gave her six phrases and she sketched them on paper. I then photograph the sketches, upload, trace and colour on the iPad.